Tonight I got an email message from the commander of a battalion of US troops, somewhere near Tikrit, asking me to evaluate the Iraqi personality. He cut his message short because he thought that his position was being attacked by mortars. This is the reply that I sent him…
Thanks for your message.
Just to correct you, I’ve never mentioned Sadr in my writings. I have, however, mentioned Iraqi people – as those were the people I associated with during my time in Baghdad.
They have huge reservoirs of dignity and pride and nationalism. In themselves – for Iraq.
I spoke to my mother’s cousin who lived in Baghdad in the late 50s / early 60s tonight. This was her impression about the people as well.
Her comment to me (if you can cope with truthfulness) was about the occupation of your forces. Her comment was so blatantly obvious in it’s simplicity. How would we like it if Iraqis were to take over the UK? We wouldn’t. America would respond to such a situation in the extreme.
In Fallujah, you are fighting fighters. This is an integral part of their culture – to fight and not allow surrender. We’re not talking about West Point here. This is a way of life. No one can win the battle in Fallujah, unless your army withdraws. That would be the only kind of victory you could achieve. Your only victory can be to minimise the loss of life – both in your forces and within the civilians of Fallujah. It is a fiercely independent and tribal system that is operated there. Our ‘fixer’ in Iraq learnt to shoot a gun, ride a horse and swim at the age of seven. He is from the Fallujah area. The tribal system remains strong. Blood may be thicker than water – tribal loyalties are thicker than blood.
I am not pro – insurgence / rebellion / bloodshed. I simply believe that you should not judge / bomb / attack a people if you have no understanding of those people. You have no choice, you work for the US Army.
Yes – in fighting them, you are talking a language they understand. There must be, however, better lines of communication than bombing the shit out of them.
As we were leaving Baghdad, taking a ‘short cut’ through Fallujah and Ramadi, we passed a US Tank involved in ‘Stop and Search’. It had ASSAULT AND BATTERY written on it’s barrel.
Nice Peace – Keeping.
Iraq has an enormously long history, splattered with blood. It is heart breaking. I don’t imagine that you have had much chance to talk to Iraqi people. I did in Baghdad.
Wonderful, hospitable, dignified people.
Americans are proud of being American – and the history of your country is one of the shortest there is.
Imagine the pride that beats within the chests of Iraqis, who have spent the majority of their lives being manipulated and repressed, yet whose history and culture pre – date most of what are now considered to be ‘the civilised world’.
The history that is being made now should be about their freedom. But it seems to be about their genocide.
I have not left Baghdad hating Americans. The fear and paranoia shown by the GIs I spoke to there concerns me. I hate the manipulators who have put you and your kind into the situation that you are in.
My mother’s cousin talked about the ‘mob’ mentality that was obvious during her time (during the fall of King Faisal). She sees that this is still happening – Fallujah, the Sadr chaos, Kut and Basra.
Mass hysteria laced with dignity and hospitality. I cannot explain the typical characteristics of an Iraqi to you. All that I can say is that I met some wonderful Iraqi’s in Baghdad, and now worry about them on an hourly basis.
Keep safe. Get home safe. You are in an extra – ordinary country full of wonderful people. It saddens me that neither side will allow the other to experience this.
“How would we like it if Iraqis were to take over the UK? We wouldn’t. America would respond to such a situation in the extreme.”
No, we wouldn’t like it at all. But if our leader, or yours, and his two sons were ruthless animals who oppressed, raped and robbed us, we might be relieved. If they killed our men and threw them into anonymous mass graves, we might even be grateful. Of course, with him still in power, we would never be able to say any of this because they might cut off our toungue, or even our head! And even if someone came into our country and got rid of him, we might still be afraid to say something. But at least we would be glad he was gone, and wouldn’t try to kill the people who got rid of him for us. Sorry Fi. Your writing is eloquent, but you way miss the point. It’s certainly obvious where your sympathies lie.
I don’t think that Fiona misses the point. She’s never suggested that the Iraqi people didn’t want Saddam toppled, or that they’re ungrateful to the coalition for doing so - she’s just questioned the approach of the occuypying forces that remain. I think that’s reasonable. We entered Iraq to liberate its people from a dictator, not to impose our own way of thinking on them (or at least I hope we did). Add into the mix the fact that something like 10,000 civilians have been killed by coalition forces, and it really shouldn’t be that suprising that people are angry. Gratitude has its limits, just like everything else.
Let’s try to understand the approach of the coalition after Saddam was toppled. It seems the fighting that is going on is in response to continued restistance by Iraqis loyal to Saddam. How would you suggest they respond to the attacks that are launched against them? Strange gratitude - horribly killing innocent American contractors in Fallujah, who were only there to help the Iraqi people. Certainly you don’t suggest our troops killed 10,000 civilians for good measure? With Saddam’s evil regime gone, our goal is to try to return control of the country to the Iraqis, to help them establish THEIR own democracy, not to impose our way of life on them. Let’s be real about what is going on. There are many wonderful people in Iraq. Unfortunately, the ones that are making this war drag on are the ones that would like nothing better than to see ALL Americans dead.
Check your facts. The resistance is not loyal to Saddam - it’s loyal to Muqtada al-Sadr, a Shiite cleric whose father was killed by Saddam in 1999. What’s more, the Sunni Muslems of Fallujah were never supportive of Saddam. What happened to the “contractors” in Fallujah was truly awful, but all four were employees of Blackwater Security Consulting, a firm that provides armed personel to the highest bidder. The men were soldiers of fortune - and as such you can be fairly certain that their motive was neither patriotism nor a wish to help the Iraqi people.
C’mon Fi you’re well out of order here.
As you rightly point out, tribal loyalties are thicker than blood. Tribal loyalties are also more important to the people of Fallujah than being Iraqi. Iraq does NOT have a long and bloody history, Iraq is a recent creation of the British. The insurgents in Fallujah barbarically mutilated four American ‘civilians’. This does not tell me that they have a reservoir of dignity. This tells me they are nothing more than savages.
With regard to the stop and search, if the Americans felt that this guy needed searching, then they were doing it for the safety of the innocent residents of Fallujah. Yes, they were in a tank, you can’t expect them to risk their own safety by attempting to stop a vehicle on foot if they don’t need to. The assault and battery thing is nothing more than a symbol, a team name. The tank to them is nothing more than a power tool with which they do their job, just like you and ‘Big Walt’.
‘GENOCIDE’? Do me a favour that is so wrong.
Yes the people we met were proud, and yes they were dignified, they were also grateful to the allies for freeing them of Saddam.
It is a complicated situation in Iraq at the moment, and the Americans are not doing a peticularly good job, but the majority of Iraqi’s would not wish to see them leave, and put them at the mercy of the kind of people who kidnap teenagers and threaten to burn them alive.
I’m with Stan on this one. My dictionary defines genocide as “the systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.” Sure, the coalition is making mistake after mistake, but do you really believe that this is what’s going on here? Comparisons with Vietnam I can understand, but genocide brings to mind Hitler, Pol Pot or the events in Rwanda a decade ago… the mind boggles.
I’m with Nancy on this. Gratitude has its limits, just like everything else… If we were in the place of those in Iraq how would we feel losing our loved ones, seeing death all around all the time, and with all the broken promises from the US? Thier trust is gone, they are angry and want it to stop. This is how they (the fighters) have dealt with problems for years, this should not be a surprise to anyone.
Perhaps this is hard for those in the west to understand because it is not ‘our way’ but in the middle east if you try to take away a peoples pride (be it their country, family etc) some respond in this manner, because this is what they are used to. This is a no win situation for either side unfortunatly
I think the Americans are doing a fantastic job in a difficult situation.
They have to police Kallujah. The Sadr bubble has to be brought down.
It is strangely racially presumptuous or maybe naive to describe all Iraqis as noble and good.
They are a wild bunch, and they vary according to regional and sectarian characteristics.
A more democratic and free Iraq is not going to be
lost to Sadr fanatics.
I agree that my use of the word ‘Genocide’ was extreme. If the conflict continues as it has done recently, I really worry that it will not be too far off the mark.
There just seems to be so much needless bloodshed going on - of both civilians and coalition.
This to a degree must be blamed on the abhorrant lack of communication between the occupation and the occupied.
The war is over, and the death toll is not falling. This should be a time of celebration and hope, surely. Not a time for fear and paranoia.
Statistically (based on US troop losses) this is still a small conflict (based on an article I read in The Times on Saturday). ‘Comparisons between American deaths in Iraq and earlier conflicts, such as Vietnam, show that Iraq is still a small scale war’
I’m worried that this kind of statistic will not inspire those masterminding the situation to try to create some kind of stability there.
It is too easy to watch the news and fall into the trap of believing the actions of some extremists are representative of a whole country. As I have said before, the deaths and mutilation of the security workers in Fallujah was an horrendous act. I can’t, however, see how it justifies the deaths of over 400 Iraqis and the wounding of thousands.
Unless a radical re - think happens by the coalition forces, I think there is a danger that non - radical Iraqis will end up answering extreme calls to arms, as their promised freedom from a oppressive dictatorship is seemingly replaced by a violent, bloody occupation, whose presence inspires fear.
Responding to David, there is no such thing as “but” regarding what happened to those four Americans. Even if their motives weren’t entirely selfless, they certainly weren’t there to cause harm. What happened to them speaks volumes more about the people that killed them than it does to their motives. Our response there is well justified!
Yes Rachel, we can all empathise with the injury to their pride and dignity. But there was no pride or dignity under Saddam, and I’m sure there won’t be much under al-Sadr, if that’s who they choose to follow. We’re constantly hearing of how we need to have a better understanding of them and their culture. A better understanding of us would go a long way to showing that we truly are trying to help them.
But there was no pride or dignity under Saddam.
Ouch. I very much doubt that’s true of the thousands of Basra Shiites who died fighting Saddam’s regime. Or the Marsh Arabs who fought a fifteen year campaign by Baghdad to displace them. Or the inhabitants of the 4,000 Kurd communities destroyed. I suspect that these people never lost their pride or dignity, whatever happened. Neither attribute is reliant on a particular regime being in charge.
We’re constantly hearing of how we need to have a better understanding of them and their culture. A better understanding of us would go a long way to showing that we truly are trying to help them.
You’re probably right, but we are in *their* country. It onus is on us to adapt, not them. Sure, there needs to be some give and take, and since day one the US military themselves have emphasised the importance of the battle for ‘hearts and minds’, but it’s this battle the the coalition has sadly been unable to get to grips with.
The fact that the US Army has already paid over $1,500,000 dollars in compensation (made up of amounts no larger than a few hundred dollars each time) to settle more than 10,000 claims which, according to a military statement, relate to instances of “injury, wrongful death and property damage” caused by “non-combat related activities and instances where soldiers have acted negligently or wrongfully” seems to confirm this.
“innocent American contractors” is the same thing as Nazi Germany’s businesman signing contracts in France, isn’t it? Please remember Nazi leaders had a nice reason to invade the Europe: They’d kill the bad kinds (Jews, gipsies ets), and clean the human kind.
JamesV
My perception of Iraqi people was based on those that I met whilst there. You obviously have differing views based on your own life experiences…. I hope.
Demonising a nation is a really easy way to justify subjecting them to whatever unpleasantries you fancy.
“Demonising a nation” — that’s what TypeWine is doing with the disgusting comparison of Western forces to Nazis.
Come to think of it, that’s also what you’re doing with the gratuitous use of words like “genocide”.
i wish bush and blair would join their men on the streets of iraq.i know both would flinch.ignorance is bliss it seems.so called christians have forgotten,bless be the peace makers.
You were in Iraq for what, a week? Less than that? You didn’t leave Baghdad. You basically know nothing about Iraq, beyond some scattered tourist observations. And you presume to condescend to someone who may well die in Iraq, doing what he thinks is what’s necessary to defend his country. “If you can cope with truthfulness” indeed.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your assessment of the American occupation, but I was so disgusted by the arrogant way you expressed yourself in this post that I felt like I had to say something. Lest we forget, the British didn’t do so well in Iraq either. This guy who emailed you is trying to do his best under some very difficult circumstances; I’m sure he’d appreciate a little humility.
Anyone who supports the actions of the US forces in Iraq should first look at the comparative performance of the British forces. Admittedly, the British are policing an area with a different situation, but when trouble has threatened, their “softly, softly” approach has tended to defuse rebellion rather than encourage further disobedience. In comparison, the heavy-handed approach of American troops, attempting to “stamp out” the resistance, has only served to fuel resentment in communities that otherwise might have welcomed them. History is full of such instances, where a calm, reasonable and peaceful approach could have prevented much bloodshed. Perhaps most pertinently, there is the fact that the American War of Independence would never have happened had we British just been willing to talk calmly with the colonists. Instead, the Brits chose the heavy-handed option and Americans turned to violence.
Our response there is well justified!
You’re right. Avenging four people who chose to go to Iraq by killing 600 who didn’t is completely justified and makes complete sense.
According to sources that I don’t completely trust, but which unfortuantely make more sense than official figures, the death toll in Iraq is way more than 10,000. Some study done in August by an Iraqi group that said it was independent placed the death toll at 37,000 not including armed militias, i.e. enough for two and a half years of Saddam Hussein in just five months. Another study - I don’t remember who did it, but I do remember that Riverbend linked to it at the time - done in October placed the body count betwen 21,000 and 55,000.
But then again, the United States has rarely viewed non-whites as full human beings, so it’s hardly surprising.
No. Killing 600 people is never right. Killing one person is never right! That is not what I meant. I said our response was justified. Our response was anger, and our troops went in and tried to find who was responsible. We didn’t just bomb Fallujah in a knee-jerk reaction. What would your response have been? Do you think maybe they resisted and attacked, and maybe the 600 casualties are due to that? By the way - did you happen to see the footage of the mobs celebrating while what was left of the the bodies of these poor souls hung on display?! Those people were so proud of themselves they were mugging for the cameras. We’re not talking about just a few people here - I bet there were at least 600 there alone. Where is your outrage? And certainly you don’t mean to imply that, because those four “chose to go in there”, what happened to them was anything less than barbaric!! That boggles the mind.
What amazes so many of us here is the attitude that it’s good that we got rid of Saddam, but, having done that, it is not OK that we defend ourselves against the constant attacks. C’mon, these guys are not driving around taking potshots at civilians for the thrill of it. They are defending themselves against a daily onslaught of guns, bombs, grenades, suicide bombers,…..all in gratitude?? I just don’t get what everyone expects of them. So much criticism about how poorly the troops are handling themselves. Do you think that if they were acting in “perfect” fashion that there would be any less hatred directed at them. And just how should they act, never knowing where the next attack is coming from? I hear and read too much about evil us and not enough about evil Saddam. I know the majority of Iraqis are grateful to be relieved of this madman. These are a passionate people - why are we not seeing mobs demonstrating that instead?
And cut the crap about the US attitude toward non-whites. Every country has its history, and there is enough in ours that I’m not proud of. But, that’s a different discussion. In case you haven’t noticed, we’re mostly a nation of non-whites, if what your definition of “white” is what I think it is. I’m not “white”, and I have no problem with the US attitude towards me.
Killing 600 people is never right. Killing one person is never right! That is not what I meant. I said our response was justified. Our response was anger, and our troops went in and tried to find who was responsible.
And 600 people were killed as a result. What was your point again?
Do you think maybe they resisted and attacked, and maybe the 600 casualties are due to that
Yes, I’m sure that’s probably the reason. If you’re attacked, you resist. It’s the same on both sides. Dozens of dead children are simply an unfortunate side-effect, I guess.
And certainly you don’t mean to imply that, because those four “chose to go in there”, what happened to them was anything less than barbaric.
I doubt it very much, Maria. Where do you get this from? So many of your so-called arguments take this line of attack, where you imply that people who comment here mean things that are simply not supported by what they’ve written. Where did Joe Taylor suggest that what happened wasn’t barbaric?
And then in the very next paragraph:
What amazes so many of us here is the attitude that it’s good that we got rid of Saddam, but, having done that, it is not OK that we defend ourselves against the constant attacks.
Where has anyone said that? You’re either reading and not taking anything in, or you’re twisting what people are saying to suit your own garbled agenda.
They are defending themselves against a daily onslaught of guns, bombs, grenades, suicide bombers,…..all in gratitude??
What? That doesn’t even make sense.
Do you think that if they were acting in “perfect” fashion that there would be any less hatred directed at them.
Are you serious? Errr, yes, and I think you’d be crazy not to agree.
I know the majority of Iraqis are grateful to be relieved of this madman. These are a passionate people - why are we not seeing mobs demonstrating that instead?
Uhm, we are. There have been both pro-American and anti-Amerrican demonstrations ever since the “war” ended. You’re being selective again, hearing want you want to hear, seeing what you want to see. Sadly, the pro-American rallies are growing less and less frequent as time passes. Why do you think that is?
I’m not “white”, and I have no problem with the US attitude towards me.
Good for you. You’re a lucky person. Many of us do.
But, that’s a different discussion. In case you haven’t noticed, we’re mostly a nation of non-whites
Yes, it is a different discussion, but if you’re going to contribute to it, then at least get your figures right. The US Census Bureau records that 69% of the US population is currently made up of non-Hispanic whites. This number is decreasing, but it certainly doesn’t support your statement.
I don’t often read the “comments” sections of the blogs I read daily. Almost sorry I read these! What leads to the combatative nature of the discussion and the more or less personal attacks on posters?
My son is in Iraq. He is shot at and passes IEDs daily. Both he and I disagreed with the initial war in Iraq. We don’t think it was OUR place to remove Saddam. It was the Iraqi peoples’ job!
But now that we’re there, we need to clean up our mess and hopefully leave the Iraqis with some sort of unrepressive government that they can find the tolerance (just in case its not everyman’s tribe or religion) and courage to support!
To Americans: PLEASE support our troops. They really believe that they’re protecting YOU! My son has been there 14 months…and now he’s told 4-6 more months. This is KILLING me. But he is stoic and honorable about this latest order, even tho’ he was ON HIS WAY to KUWAIT to come home. He’s had no mail in 6 weks, since it was cut off due to redeployment home. The Iraqi summer cost him 30 lbs last year…he is 6′ 4″ and weighs 170 in prime condition. He suffered dehydration, rashes, bad food, intolerable heat in his combat gear with 40 lbs on his back….and he felt scalded by the hate of many of the Iraqi people. But he never complained to those of us at home. Only worried about me, his dad and his new wife…with whom he had 2 months before deployment. He also worries constantly about the Iraqi kids who hang around his humvee. He knows HE’s a target and worries that the kids would be hurt too.
Please just cut our service men & women some slack. They just take orders! They do the hardest work in the world for the lowest pay. And, if most are like my son, they do it for the most altruistic reasons: to serve and protect the people and country they love!
First off, you’re all trying to subtly twist what others are saying to fit your own agenda. It’s human nature to want to confirm your own opinion and prove how your right, especially when it’s expressed in written form like this. In social psychology it’s called the Consistency Principle.
Anyways, what’s happening in Iraq right now is tragic, I never totally agreed with the reasons for the war, mostly because of how they changed from time to time. But, as is, we’re stuck with it. There’s no way around it, sure we’ve pissed off a lot of people, chalk that up to bad training and a slight racial hatred and fear instilled in us by the media after 9/11. But, as it is, Sadr needs to be removed as well, for all those lives to have meant something, it would have been great if we’d taken a softer approach, hell it would have saved many many lives. But as of now, our only real option is to topple Sadr, whilst making sure the rest of the country doesn’t hate us.
Some say the American liberation of Iraq was more of an occupation, and I tend to agree. But as of right now, there’s no logical way we could end this, if we pulled out right now, Sadr’s henchmen would have Iraq worse than it was whenever it started, and we’d get even more hated resentment, because it’d be like when we abandoned the Kurds, except an entire country this time. Anyways, this has turned into a bit of a rant, so I’ll end it here, love to hear some discussion on the issue though.
We have one of the most powerful “tools” at our disposal for re-shaping the events that take place in Iraq and we keep resorting to “natural means”. This “tool”? It’s PRAYER. Now don’t scoff and run away… read further….
Get the book “Rees Howells - Intercessor” by Norman Grubb and read how a small group of intercessors in England prayed specifically for changes in different battles during WWII and how those battles were significantly altered as a result of PRAYER. God will not move as long as we hold on to our “natural” ways and trust in “natural substances”. We have to exercise our faith and use that “unseen substance” called FAITH.
I have been praying specifically for the release of hostages–and I know that I’m not the only one praying in that same way. As we pray IN FAITH and ask God to move–in specific ways–we will see His intervention. (Don’t forget, He has given man FREE WILL which He allows us to exercise–for good or evil–but we must choose. But if we He ASK Him to get involved and re-shape circumstances He will. He waiting on us. It’s up to us to stop whining and get on our knees!)
If you want to read about current day miracles read this excerpt from http://cbn.org/CBNNews/News/040407e.asp
“Lieutenant Carey Cash, chaplain to the First Battalion, 5th Marine regiment, part of the first ground force to enter Iraq, says there is no doubt that God was with them. In his new book, “A Table in the Presence,” Cash gives his first-hand account of how God was not only moving in the hearts of the troops, but miraculously shielded them from the massive array of weapons poised to stop them.”
When we first entered Iraq, you can bet that LOTS of people were praying and, no doubt, this made a difference. But now, people have gotten lax and left the discipline of prayer. We need to do this NOW more than ever. Will you join me in a concert of prayer? Lifting our voices in the privacy of our very own bedrooms or cars, coming before the Lord and asking Him to change circumstances that Iraq will be established as a secure democracy and our occupation will come to a close, that hostages will be released and soldiers will be protected in ways we may never hear about but THEY will know that something supernatural happened. May the concert be sot intense that they actually FEEL our prayers.
1) Peg, your son is in a terrible situation, bearing it stoically, doing his best. I wish him home. I will strive to bring him home.
2) A comment often heard. “Well, the war was a mistake, but now that we’re there…” This is not the first time these words have been uttered and they should never be uttered again. Those who said them after the Tet offensive in 1968 should think about the 30,000 additional names that ended up on the Wall in the next years, not to mention all the nameless Vietnamese who died.
3) There is a fundamental reason why we can never accept this argument in a democracy. Our Presidents lied to start both the Vietnam and the Iraq War. They claimed we were being or were about to be attacked. But the Gulf of Tonkin incident was invented and there were no WMD’s (nor is any state ever going to launch a missile at the US and be instantly annhilated by our second strike capability). The point is this. Presidents know that once we’re in a war (no matter how we got there) everybody instinctively lines up behind the commander-in-chief and supports our troops. So they don’t even need a long-term plan. All they have to do is contrive a way to get us in there and the rest follows. They can lie and lie again, because they are never
penalized for their lies, and our democracy slowly dies under the weight of them. To preserve our democracy and prevent future abuses, we must never allow this argument to carry the day.
4) What is the current problem with the occupation? There are hidden agendas. Bush & the neocons never wanted to just hand over Iraq to the Iraqis. They wanted to craft a new Iraq to their specifications. Should the new Iraqi government be bound by an unalterable status of forces agreement that gives the USA four permanent military bases in Iraq? What about all the Iraqi state business that were privatized and sold off by the coalition to foreign companies?–this is radically against international law. Even Sistani doesn’t want to be bound by any of these decisions which have been made by occupation authorities and not Iraqis.
5) This is the real reason why Bush & Co. didn’t want to turn over state building to an impartial international body. Because the UN would have set up some system to consult with the Iraqis and would have required their approval for these major decisions.
6) So now we pay the price of being an occupier. Or rather our soldiers do, facing the same “destroy the village to save it” decision that split the army apart in Vietnam.
7) We must leave. We must hand over all political authority to an international body. Not just th UN–which has been fatally compromised by allowing itself to be used as a cover for US policy–but to the Arab League and some combo of Arab Countries, who can invite the UN in themselves. There must be no American bases in Iraq. No American companies who’ve bought up government assets at the Bush garage sale should remain. No American soldiers being the policeman of the world. These poor kids have been tainted by the duplicity of their commander-in-chief and stuck in a situation where they can’t function.
8) Please don’t use the word “instability.” We are not some vulnerable country threatened by power vacuums or falling dominos or any of the standard abstract bogies that pundits pull out of their hat. We are the strongest country the world has ever seen. We will survive this fiasco. The Iraqis, now that we’ve shown the Sunni’s and Shia’s the national pride they have in common, will find a way with international help, to rebuild their country.
9) What’s important is to bring our soldiers home and never, never, never put them in a situation like this again.
I seriously want to know, what you think they need to do to fix this situation.
I’ve heard a gereral “racial hatred” here. Don’t you think the U.S. realizes that they have to win Iraqi hearts and minds in anyway they can? Even looking at this through selfish, self preservation aspect, U.S. forces would still want to win Iraqi hearts and minds. Obviously, it could prevent them from being shot at.
Ok great, there are problems, how do we fix them?
I simply believe that you should not judge / bomb / attack a people if you have no understanding of those people.
We need a general understanding of them. Great. I have a general understanding of them. I understand Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Let’s understand the hell out of them until they go away.
There must be, however, better lines of communication than bombing the shit out of them.
Perhaps, trying to broker a cease fire and trying to include the governing council in the endeavor is not enough?
Even then we have Iraqi bloggers say that this is not the best thing to do, but rather we should completely smash the Sadr militia. We have all sides saying everything. So where is the constructive criticism? So far it has only been coming from the Iraqi bloggers who have a real stake in the American’s success.
I am an Indian, and I agree with Fi when she mentions ‘pride’ for one’s country with a history that predates the modern world. It would be difficult for an American or a modern European to feel and emote the kind of ‘pride’ that we guys feel for our countries. The pride is about our culture, our language, our literature, our social system, everything. This ‘pride’ is passed on from generation to generation, not by parents drilling stuff into our brains but by the simple act of living in the country and following the customs and traditions from our childhood. ‘But what has pride and all that stuff that you wrote got to do with the situation on the ground?’, you ask. Herein, my friends, lies the answer.
You, my pal, have come from a distant land to fight my battles, expecting truckloads of gratitude in return. It shocks and amazes you that the people whom you came to liberate are shooting at you. The problem is that you guys are looking at the situation from the wrong end of the prism. Does it ever strike you that the politicians who sent you here did not choose to tell you (if they themselves knew it!):
a. The people you are going to liberate have a history that predates you. They got civilized, learnt the art of writing, music, city planning et all when your ancestors were living out of caves. They didn’t tell you that nor did they tell you ‘Go son, respect them, understand them and their sense of honour, learn from them and give them what they have missed during the years of oppression, freedom to choose their representatives, free press, electricity, working telephones etc’
b. They also did not tell you that the race of people that you are going to liberate are fiercely independent and have for centuries learnt the art of war. They, as a collective unit, have shed more blood to protect their heritage, through their long history, than both the world wars combined and more. They are the last people who would like to draw blood and wage war on any pretext. If you go in as a conquerer, a military might and play politics with their lives, give them puppet goverments filled with your reps, use strong arm tactics, then be sure to be given the treatment that every proud nation would give an aggressor.
For heaven’s sake understand the people, give them what they have lacked during the years and years of oppression. Don’t bomb them to oblivion and position snipers to shoot at ambulances. It is then that you shall be able to stop the bloodshed and identify the very miniscule bunch of people who would like to forment trouble to satisfy their own goals. It is also then that you shall be able to genuinely enjoy the warmth, hospitality and sincere gratitude of a people who shall be your friends for life, thru thick and thin.
Ah, bunch of fellow Americans pretending that they care about the welfare of non Americans in far away lands while fully supporting any collateral consequence (i.e. loss of life) towards those non Americans. Political deceit is one thing. Self-deceit is simply pathetic. I have seen people mention Osama Bin Laden, as if Iraq had anything to do with him. (Some of you have not kept up with the news, have you?). Freedom for Iraqis, ah yeah, the original Reasons for this Illegal war changed didn’t they? No WMD so let’s now say it was for Iraqi democracy. And a bunch of you have such compassionate hearts and souls that you seem to genuinely care about what happened to many Iraqis under Sadam. I bet many of you are recriminating your country for selling weapons to Sadam in those early days of Iran/Iraq war (ah yes, we did not “officially” sell the weapons to him, yeah right!) I bet many of you fellow Americans are recriminating your government for not having saved the lives of close to 1 million civilians in Rwanda. (Ah, right, Rwanda does not have oil, never mind).
If I hear one more brainwashed soul complain about caring so much about what Sadam did while this person obviously has no knowledge of what is currently happening in Congo, Liberia or other turmoil ridden, dictatorship controlled lands, I will scream.
The truth is hard to accept for most Americans and many British, but why is it that the rest of the world Does see it so clearly?
The war was illegal. Evidence was flimsy and fake. Iraqi people are dying, going hungry, have no security, many are jobless, all thanks to us. Of course we need to defend ourselves from what is so painfully obvious to everyone else (the rest of the world). We need to believe that we are really not as evil as what our actions so clearly demonstrate …
My counsellor and I disagree about anger; she keeps trying to persuade me that anger can be a positive force, whereas I’ve seen the kind of damage unrestrained anger can cause on a personal scale and therefore try to eschew it.
As regards Iraq, US soldiers’ anger at being shot at by ungrateful ragheads is quite understandable. And so is reacting the way they’ve been trained, i.e. with overwhelming force. Thing is, that kind of reaction while good in maneuver-type warfare is so the wrong thing to do in insurgency warfare.
Ordering artillery strikes on snipers in an urban environment is completely inappropriate. You don’t necessarily get the sniper, who can just slip away in the mayhem, but you’re almost guaranteed to cause civilian casualties out of proportion to the threat, which just causes the civilians to see you as the bad guys, and means more recruits to the insurgents.
And, you know, doing stop-and-searches is alienating enough, no matter how necessary, but when you do it from a tank, or covered with body armour with your rifle not carefully pointed into the air… well, you might as well be aliens for all the good effect it has on the civilian populace. It doesn’t even foster a feeling of safety in the poor grunts, just makes them nervous and even more likely to make fatal mistakes. Fatal to civilians, that is. And what do dead civilians mean, class? More insurgents, that’s right.
It’s bad enough that the US Military machine won’t learn from the rest of the world’s experience (Northern Ireland, former-Yugoslavia, Lebanon), but when it won’t learn from its own experience (Vietnam), one truly despairs.
I want our soldiers back.
I have a great respect to our marines and the other branches of the military, but they deserve a better commander and chief, because the current sadist in office isn’t it… Of course even Bush gives sadism a bad name.
Sooo, what does happen when Bush is not voted back in for a second term? I always suggested since the republican party thinks it is doing such a great job in the US, that it should relocate to IRAQ and do the same to them… And each one be paid the same as a soldier’s pay is…. why is it the one sacrificing the most, be paid the least? And what is the military protecting anyway? Freedom or [Bush] Oil? it all seems to be easily confused, he heads for bin laden land and arrests saddam hussein…hiding in a pit toilet… (he was warm and well loved there) And people wondered if Reagan had alzheimers while in office… You start to wonder who the evil person of the world is… And if we are going to be the bad guys, why not go all the way… we’re already doing a good job terrorizing our own country, why not the world? Train the people of IRAQ to care of themselves, then Pull Our military out of IRAQ. The real pity is we place our leaders there, in office, because we either trusted what they were going to do for us, didn’t want to be bothered, or we’re a bunch of Idiots… How many children want to grow up and become president? probably the bully of the school yard… Yes, bush is evil, but what does that make us for allowing him into office..? And Kerry? Might as well put Nader in Office (no offense)… My guess is they all accept bribes…uhhh, gifts.. ( when is a gift not a gift? when u want something in return.. and in the federal government that should be considered a bribe, but instead, it is a used for a reduction in a fine or a shortened prison sentence…. When did our government lose sight that the USA is not a dictatorship, and a free country… How is the majority of one party, not appearing to be a dictatorship? and a warped, retarded, right-winger, bible thumpin, sheep humpin, over controlling of ones personal rights, as in what one can do with their own body and who they marry, AND protecting the large corporation instead of the individual tax payer..? *&%$#@!, *&^%$#@!, *&%$#@!… And in the end, what do u get to keep with u when u die…?? NOTHING!
WHAT THE HECK DO WE DO THIS ALL FOR???
….and then what?
Our freedom will always be shoved down our throats with how great this country we live in is….was… but it feels like our freedoms are becoming just a delusion.. One party gives the other takes away to fix what the one gives.. in the reality of it all, no one really cares..
Demonising a nation : (by the nation itself)
The body count in Fallujah till now is 518 Iraqis dead (160 of them women, and about 50 children) and 1250 badly injured. Doctors from Fallujah mentioned that a large number of the dead women and children were shot in the head and that they were saving the extracted bullets to prove that they were being targetted by Marines snipers in the city. And Evil Pundit says I’m doing disgusting comparisons. Poor nazis!
Let’s get something straight: the people of Fallujah had an effective government already set up: news reports at the time reveal that Falluja was entirely peaceful until the Yanks rolled in and took over a local school as their base. The battle there now has nothing to do with Saddam, Ba’athists or Osama Bin Laden and everything to do with the fact that American forces have tried to take control of a city that did not need or want them. This is apparently the point of some of Fiona’s posts, and is also borne out by the news reports from the time of the invasion.
A simple programme would give America a viable exit strategy and give Iraq a true democracy, not just a puppet regime to the Pentagon, which is apparently the current objective of the hand-over process (you have to respect that, if you let people say what they really want, they might decide they don’t like you very much and let you know that…).
Step 1, talk to these people. They aren’t hardened terrorists (if they were, they would never have released all those hostages). They don’t want Saddam back in power. Back off a bit. If that makes you look weak, then you need to look weak. Looking strong has only made you more enemies!
Step 2, forget June 30th. If you do step 1 correctly, then this shouldn’t be a problem. Give the Iraqi council enough time to set up proper elections and thereby give the Iraqi people what you’ve promised them (democracy).
In short, America needs to stop telling people what to do and start listening to them instead.
The United States in particular and the West in general have engaged in racist policies, and I’m not just talking about slavery. Look at Rwanda, where the USA, European countries, and the UN did absolutely nothing until after the bulk of the genocide had been done, and look at the relatively quick response to the Bosnia and Kosovo genocides. Earlier than that, look at the incarceration of people of Japanese descent in concentration camps during WW2; the only Germans and Italians who suffered a similar fate, by contrast, were hardline Nazis and fascists. The USA, the EU, and Japan not only give hardly any aid to hunger-stricken areas; they spend money on agricultural subsidies that make the situation in the third world worse.
I have a hunch that if Iraqis were white, the CIA would’ve assassinated/kidnapped Saddam & Co. with 0 civilian casualties and a functioning, relatively stable democracy would’ve been built in hardly any time.
The best figures I have show that the United States has so far murdered, manslaughtered, or indirectly caused the murder of enough Iraqis for five years of Saddam Hussein. The one good thing that came out of the invasion, though, is the end of the sanctions, which were responsible to the deaths of about eighty thousand Iraqis a year.
Hey Fi, did you envision that your blog would be taken over by such predictable and rote rambling.
Oh I get it, American’s are racist, imperialist, murdering Nazis. What? How can one possibly hope to convince anyone with a line like that. If that’s truly what we are, why do you even bother rationalizing with us? After all, we’re just out to eradicate you anyway (oh, I mean “purify”). Do you really believe that? Geez, even when Americans sought to rebuild post WWII Germany, we gave them the benefit of the doubt…and they really were Nazis (or, excuse me, ex-nazis). Should those Germans have continued to resist us after the war because we were the occupiers and they had such a superior and lengthy past of martial conquest and culture. Yeah, that would have turned out real well.
Oh, by the way, I’m also one of the “lucky” minorities here as well.
And what’s with this ancient=great stuff? If your core sense of pride rests on the accomplishments of very distant and dead ancestors, then stick a fork in yourself cause you’re done. I mean, look around you…the world is moving forward and you know what, we could really give a rat’s ass about who got “out of the cave” first.
Shees, let’s get back to trying to figure each other out without the venemous platitudes. Otherwise, what the hell is the point?
It just seems to be a case of ‘light the blue touch paper and retire’.
As far as the ‘ancient is great’thoughts, we’re talking about a people whose history has been hijacked by the Mongols, the Ottomans, the British, the Ba’ath Party, the CPA etc. If I were an Iraqi, I think I’d certainly take some comfort from past achievements, as not much recently has given them reason to feel proud.
Check out this article in the NYT. I recommend this not to try and persuade anyone but because it does, IMO, a very good job of explaining a POV.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/15/opinion/15BERM.html
Cheers
British activist Jo Wilding is in Fallujah, and has sent back an account of her experiences. Warning: It is extremely disturbing.
I support Fi at all costs.
How do you feel? I won’t support anyone at all costs but I support Fi like that. You tickle people and expect them not to laugh? You prick people and expect them to not to bleed? You poison/radiate-with-DU people and expect them not to die? And you stay there, will they not revenge?
You shut down a newspaper. Your CNN didn’t show anti-terror demonstrations but insurgency. You killed women and children with your snipers –which is more accurate than your smart bombs. And you’re whining about insurgency. You Americans didn’t bring there democracy. You brought the law of nature: Kill or be killed. I suggest you the law of humans. Live and help the others to live. Respect, in order to be respected. While you breath let others to breath. Whether you share their view of life or not.
Fi
I’m not sure what “light the blue touch paper” means exactly but I think I have an idea and I agree.
As for relying on the past for one’s self-worth, well you already know my thoughts on that.
Every civilization and culture has been repressed or repressed another at some point in time. It is hardly a unique quality and really excuses nothing for the current generation. The only way to progress is to accept it happened, get over it and move forward when the opportunity presents itself. Hey, you never know, the former oppressor could even become your closest ally sometime in the future.
Oh and TyperWine;
What?
It took the US decades to clean up Germany after WWII. That being said however, while I think our effort in Iraq is a noble one, and I think that there is a special pit in hell for Saddam Hussain, the Iraqis’ themselves are not striking me as particularly worthy of our efforts. I understand that it is only a miniscule number of people who are actively fighting the troops and burning and mutilating bodies and blowing up their own police stations, but it is my opinion that the average Iraqi is far too tribal and primitive to accept a democratic system of government. I just don’t feel like wasting any more American lives or dollars on an ungrateful people.
As written on the side of boxes of fireworks - ‘Light the blue touch paper and retire’.
Our American President keeps saying that freedom is not America’s gift to the world, but God’s gift to every human being. To him I would say this: freedom cannot be imposed; it must be allowed. We may not like the “democracy” that emerges in Iraq, but that is not ours to decide. It is ultimately the Iraqis’ decision, and the question really is how long it takes the United States government to accept that fact. That said, I think our exit strategy is actually quite simple: leave. Just leave. That is what the British ultimately did in India, and I am positive that is ultimately what the U.S. will do in Iraq.
There is no such thing as “the Iraqi personality”. The whole idea is racist to start with.
I learned to swim when I was 5, I rode a horse and about 8 (not competently), I fired a gun at 12, rode a motorbike and drove a car at 13 - yes we had friends who lived on a farm. I didn’t turn into a fierce fighter! I turned into an academic. Maybe that’s because I learned to read books even earlier?
Who knows what your ‘fixer’s’ background is - apart from what he told you.
I don’t intend to adopt a position on this. I admire you for going there at all and really enjoyed reading your posts.
Melanie
Racist? Please, give me a break. My comments were based on my experiences there. That does not make me at all racist. That makes me someone who observes without judgement.
You mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
Blasting loud rock (what, no LimpBizkit?) and insults at the Fallujah uprisers is the current state of psyops in Iraq. At night, the psychological operations unit attached to the Marine battalion here sends out messages from a loudspeaker mounted…
fiona, thank you so much for your article. all the talk of WW II is instructive. the americans there left many German soldiers in open air POW camps without latrines and food. tens of thousands wasted away of disease and starvation.
we don’t read about it in the history books (although we do read about the work brigades that Soviets took away to Moscow and from which so few Germans returnded).
andy should stop reading the almost entirely propaganda filled American press and inane American history books and do some serious travelling - without American companionship.
he has a lot to learn about this world.
anyway thanks so much for sharing your experiences with us.
all the best,
alec
If you start a war without the permission of the UN, then don’t complain, that your soldiers are being killed, and that Iraqi people wants to get rid of the coalition troops. And don’t start with saying that you are just acting against Iraq, to free the Iraqi people. PNAC, oil and scaring off the Saudis are the only reasons. Bush and “mister puppet” Blair better realize that democracy is not working in every country.
Alec,
Hey, thanks for the education buddy. You mean the Russians killed German prisoners? Wow, how’d I miss that. Maybe next you’ll suggest they sent them even further east than Moscow…perhaps even to work in labor camps. Crazy stuff. Too bad I’m too much of a brainwashed idiot to ever catch these “obscure” facts.
Yeah, you know history books miss so much. Especially ALL the English versions. Heck, why do we even bother. I must have believed everything I read back in Chapt 5-7 (the one on WWII) of my “world history” textbook in gradeschool. Too bad I wasted all those additional years and all those additional degrees trying to learn more. After all, it’s all the same right? Better to throw history books away altogether and rely instead on…uhmmm, something else (like your own presumption or unimpeachable intuition). After all, I’m too stupid to critically analyse what I read (and even choose to read) and form my own independent observations because after all, I am American (aka; naive little child in the big bold world out there).
Of course you’re right, German soldiers deserved better treatment than what they provided anyone else; Russians, Americans, British, French, etc…oh, and lest I forget that “small group”…the non-combantant Jews. Tens of thousands eh? In American camps? That is news. Kindly foward me the reference on that one. Although I may struggle with limiting my examples of where millions perished under direct benevolent German supervision.
Alec, you presume to know what I have and have not read. That amuses me. You also presume to know where I have or have not traveled (and even whom I may or may not have done so with). That’s even funnier.
You’re right on one point though (lucky you): I do have a lot to learn about this world. Maybe that’s why I read constantly and have already traveled to most every continent…usually by myself (oh, including Germany by the way…although I confess that I don’t think that was exactly a highlight of my life). So perhaps I have more to learn than you; all-knowing Alec sitting atop your enviable tower of ivory.
But you must forgive me if I sound a bit reluctant to prostrate my modest uneducated little mind to your superior intellect and experience. Call me a skeptic. Oops, I forgot, I’m too stupid and unworldly to be a skeptic.
Kristof,
Whose complaining? Forgive us if we are a bit sad at the loss of our troops though (even if they are evil and mean). If your criteria is “permission of the UN” in order to have the right to complain…well, that should reduce the number of worldwide complaints considerbly.
Your interpretations of “true” U.S. geopolitical self-interests and intentions regarding the war on Iraq are noted. Thanks. You will of course give the same consideration to those who have a different opinion though right? Unless of course you feel like you have a monopoly on intuition and “the right opinion”.
I agree with you, democracy does not work in every country. Bush and Blair seem to feel that it could in Iraq. Despotism was given a chance and well, that didn’t work out well. I suppose there are some that would advocate fractional tribal rule (back to the glory days!), theocracy, monarchy or even some form of communism. However, the fact that these are not the first alternatives of choice for Bush and Blair should be understandable (I didn’t say agreeable).
As for letting the Iraqis alone and “have at it” by themselves. That’s certainly an option…and one that will realize sooner than they think. We’ll have to see. But I guess the fact that we are the ones who overthrew Saddam (not the Iraqis and not the UN) probably motivates us to not see chaos or a repressive theocracy takes Saddam’s place. But worry not Kristof, the U.S. and Britain will eventually leave and the Iraqi people will have their chance to determine what their future will be.
The Bush administration obviously has no intention of ever leaving Iraq. Haven’t you ever wondered why would they be establishing the largest ‘embassy’ in the world there? Military Bases? Hmmm, one reason might be to control several continents through the threat of Nuclear Power. Bush & co have every intention of seeing to it that they are the one and only Super Power in the world. Get out a world globe and look it over. You people all sound very knowing and confident, but until you study the PNAC papers, you know nothing. Under the Bush administration. America is no longer the America it was - or was intended to be, but instead of finding answers about what is happening, and instead of being seriously alarmed, americans simply swallow their propaganda whole and flaunt an arrogance due to their profound naivete. Read about the PNAC (Project For A New American Century)
after you read that, google-up New American Century: “Rebuilding America’s Defences, Strategy, Forces and Resources For A New Century” After you have studied that you will be MUCH better qualified to state an opinion, I garantee!
not to mention iraqi dolmehs are the *best*
after hearing about a place for so long, seeing pictures, reading blogs, staring at maps to put names to places and stories to paths of travel, bla& etc, i tend to want to visit the place, because it’s such an intense experience, the collision of the picture you build up and what’s there, with the incredible familiarity at the same time, subtle but vibrant, in a way just going someplace without studying up (really common experience doing a road trip in the states, passing through/by towns with no initial context to bed the experience, the images tend to dissolve). anyway, this textbox is teeeny and i just meant to say something about the dolmehs. maybe there’s different iraqi dolmehs, so these ones are the ones that look like extremely fat, wet cigars and use a lot of grain and have some aromatic spice in there that’s super-earthy mellow.
Well this is a very thoughtful response, there is a glaring hole in your thourough critique of the occupation forces.
Many of those “prideful” Iraiqs in Ramadi, Fallujah, and Mosul are responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of their countrymen.
A victory in Fallujah would be a serious reduction in arms and foreign fighters taking refuge there, some semblance of Iraqi/coalition security enforcing basic law and order, and an Iraqi government asking the coalition for help with security instead of it being forced upon them.
HonkyD,
When we British left India in 1947, splitting the subcontinent into two countries, India and Pakistan, hundreds of thousands of people were killed and millions internally displaced by the ensuing ethnic violence. If memory serves me correctly, India and Pakistan have been at war three times, their troops still point weapons at each other across a demilatarized zone in Kashmir, and both countries now have nuclear weapons. Although tensions in the region have eased in recent months, the rapid and ill-thought-out withdrawal of the British civil and military presence inevitably added to the lawlessness which followed.
I know this is a different situation - the Coalition forces have been in Iraq for a year while the British were in India in varying ways since the 17th century and, by the end, an explicitly (and proudly) colonial power. So a withdrawal might have very different consequences in this situation.
Do the Iraqis “deserve” us to be there? Interesting question. I don’t remember hearing any Iraqi voices from inside the country begging us to bomb them into democracy. I do remember an uprising against Saddam in 1991 which our governments failed to support. Maybe then we would have been seen as liberators? But that’s history and won’t get us anywhere now. I don’t know what the solution is. But I do know that it’s very easy to make judgements about these people from our homes far away from where it’s all happening.
Not MY president,
Funny name. Anyway, I read the documents you suggested and per your own assertion, I am now suddenly MUCH more qualified to state an opinion. Now, I have to digress a bit since I feel obligated to point out your logic that after reading a single press article and one gov’t document (both of which are more than a decade old) somehow legitimizes my POV. Doesn’t that sound funny to you? What a belated revelation! Had I known of this shortcut to intellectual and experiential legitimacy long ago, I could have forgone years of study and travel!
O.K. now I have a world globe and I am looking it over. However, what I see confuses me. Rather than a proliferation of U.S. bases, I am seeing military bases close down and force drawdowns being implemented in Germany, Korea, Phillipines, and Saudi Arabia (besides others). While we have compensated somewhat in a few new locations (such as the former soviet bloc…new NATO), the overall number of U.S. military personnel deployed overseas (outside of war) is dramatically down. This is something I happen to support. I also see a substantial decrease over the past decade (in which the plan you referenced was ostensibly “in effect”) in the U.S. nuclear arsenal. Again, something I support. Hmmnnnn.
While I question the presumption that our current administration is still implementing a “working paper concept” plan that is over a decade old…does this mean that Clinton also pushed it along (after all, most of the time difference was during his watch).
As for the U.S. desiring to remain the only world superpower: can’t argue there. Frankly, a new superpower in China(likely) or a resurgance of Russia(less likely) is a bit unnerving (let’s compare human rights records and a relative benevolence shall we). And relying on the UN is all good…as long as it has the will to enforce peace. Otherwise, we might as well call it the League of Nations instead and buckle down for an inevitable WWIII (yes, I am exaggerating…a bit).
BTW, an embassy, regardless of it’s size, hardly equates to a military presence. How many bases in Russia do we have? Of course I know that we would likely retain some continuing military presence in Iraq for some time. Just like Germany, Korea, Japan, etc… but I guess you’d have to ask those guys whether or not the U.S. was capable of controlling that country (much less entire continents) from those bases. Also, if nukes equated to control of continents…then the former USSR should be the dominant power in the world now since they had a whole lot more of them than anyone else (even the U.S.).
Yes, it is naive to think the U.S. is perfect. I have never said or implied that. But I maintain that it is just as naive to villify the U.S. for unsubstatiated faults. After all, we have plenty of substantiated ones to choose from.
Tom,
You make some valid points. However, I don’t get your following assertion: “I don’t remember hearing any Iraqi voices from inside the country begging us to bomb them into democracy.”.
Seems a bit silly to say since I doubt anyone could ever come up with a single instance where someone asked to be bombed…into democracy or otherwise. Your assertion just sounded odd to me.
Warning. Graphic Images.
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/CFW/imageResults.aspx?s=EventImagesSearchState%7C1%7C15%7C1%7C3158991%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C&p=7
These are not human beings.
Thou shalt not kill.
Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.
Unfortunately men of “power” have never followed these tenets. They worship another tenet : GREED. History repeats itself as it is the doom of men that they forget. To quote an old tune -
Generals gathered in their masses,
just like witches at black masses.
Evil minds that plot destruction,
sorcerers of death’s construction.
In the fields the bodies burning,
as the war machine keeps turning.
Death and hatred to mankind,
poisoning their brainwashed minds.
Oh lord, yeah!
Politicians hide themselves away.
They only started the war.
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah.
War is nothing more then organized murder on a monumental scale for the benefit of a very small group of privileged individuals worshipping at the altar of greed. Maybe one day we will learn to look past their endless platitudes on “Freedom”, “Justice”, “Equality”. But I doubt it.
Interesting comment, Craig. I’d agree that this behaviour is monstrous, inexcusable, but it’s also (sadly) extremely human. This type of violence litters the history of many countries, both Western and otherwise, and you don’t have to search too far on the web to find pictures of Fallujah children with bullet wounds to the head (apparently) caused by US snipers. If you’re not too happy with that parallel you could always fall back on people being dragged from vehicles and beaten to death during the LA riots, or news stories relating to the killing of James Byrd in Jasper, TX, or (to provide a non-US example) the torture and terrorism on boths sides of the divide in Northen Ireland. Now I’m not really not too sure which of these examples is worse, because they’re all pretty vile, by anyone’s standards. We’re all capable of this type of crap. No-one is as perfect as they’d like to pretend, and bringing isolated examples to people’s attention to try and prove a point is exactly what perpetuates the ignorance and hatred that causes this kind of stuff in the first place.
And Malys_Tryx: you’re quoting Ozzy Osbourne during a ‘debate’ about US coalition involvement in the Middle East. You’ve finally convinced me that this whole debacle is truly insane. Thanks.
This is the first time I heard a fear talk about Iraqis, I thank you for your comment as I am an Iraqi, also thank you for putting your thoughts right to the western people which they brain washed by their media specially about the Iraq and all the Arab people.
The only thing UK and then USA did for these one Arab country (From Maraca To Arabic Gulf 22 countries) was dived them to a small countries and support these protal regimes for many years, I like any one to tell me what is the royal family did in Saudi for there people or the Kuwaitis or those small funny leaders in the gulf they rule 200,000 people and they think they are a leaders…they are ……
Thanks
salah
Andy, would you please reply to my claims instead of making non sequiturs and bragging about your education?
Now, the following excerpt of yours is particularly ignorant:
Oh I get it, American’s are racist, imperialist, murdering Nazis. What? How can one possibly hope to convince anyone with a line like that. If that’s truly what we are, why do you even bother rationalizing with us? After all, we’re just out to eradicate you anyway (oh, I mean “purify”). Do you really believe that? Geez, even when Americans sought to rebuild post WWII Germany, we gave them the benefit of the doubt…and they really were Nazis (or, excuse me, ex-nazis). Should those Germans have continued to resist us after the war because we were the occupiers and they had such a superior and lengthy past of martial conquest and culture. Yeah, that would have turned out real well.
First, I never said Americans were Nazis. Second, not all racists wish to exterminate; just look at the segregationists, who merely wished to keep blacks subjugated but not dead. Third, the comparison to Germany makes no sense; I don’t recall history books talking of a single instance of hunger in Western-occupied Germany, of serious reactionary resurgence à la SCIRI, or of anything similar to the Falljuah massacre. And fourth, you’re confusing me with the other repliers; I personally don’t give a shit about Iraqi culture, and IMNSHO cultural or national pride is a form of stupidity; hence, I wouldn’t have a problem with things like discouragement of wearing hijabs or burqas and abolishing executions, amputations, and flogging.
sheeesh, none so blind as those who do not wish to see. All those ppl. here who are wondering as to why their troops are getting shot at will ya please start reading the news. Also stop telling everyone about how *sniff* you guys( americans and brits) were only trying to help.well you were trying to help i am sure and the ones u (as in your governtments ) were trying to help are really grateful …has a halliburton employee ever shot at your soldiers? i shud think not.
The word Iraq, which means Riverbed in old Arabic, has been used to refer to the three provinces in and surrounding Mosul, Baghdad and Basra for well over 4,000 years. Just correcting the idiot that thinks Iraq was a british creation.
Hi. What do you know, and what do you think about UI in Iraq ?
Joe Taylor,
Since I have never addressed you, I am a bit confused. I believe the comment I made that you seem to take so much offense to was intended for Fi.
I was bragging about my education? To you? I thought I was merely responding, again to someone other than you Joe, about my reading of “only” “inane books” and my lack of untainted travel experience. Just because I choose not to rebutt arguments with sketcy sources (in particular; statistics that you yourself have admitted to having little confidence in their credibility much less their accuracy) does not make me a braggart.
Af for the Nazi link, that was in reference to a post by Typerwine (again, not you Joe…so why did you take offense?).
So I guess I’m left wondering why are you being defensive about messages not addressed to you or comments by by other people I referenced?
But since you have addressed me, I will comment on your comments to me (other than the part of you calling me “ignorant” since…well, you certainly have a right to that judgement).
Slavery was and is bad. Segregation was and is bad. But the fact that the U.S. is reluctant to intervene in Africa has a whole lot more to do with a lack of strategic interest than racism. Fact is that Africa, as a whole, holds very little strategic value and poses little security threat to the U.S. If that changes, so will our policy toward it. Now I know this sounds harsh…but it’s what I believe. Without a doubt, Rwanda was a tragedy for humanity but beyond the localized genocide, it did not threaten American (or European for that matter) “strategic” interest. For the record, I am not one of those who feel the U.S. is in Iraq for humanitarian nor “altruistic” reasons. If that makes me a bad or “ignorant” person…well, darn.
As for hunger in Germany. Here’s a link (if you trust the library of congress) that describes the climate of post-war Germany. http://countrystudies.us/germany/44.htm
As you will note, hunger certainly did exist. I also have a father-in-law who participated in reconstruction efforts there and let’s just say that post-war Germany certainly did not lack for it’s own horrors and suffering (hunger just being one of them). One thing that DID exist though was a strong desire by the surviving Germans to move on from the violence and focus on rebuilding.
The internment of Japanese during WWII was shameful. Especially considering how many Japanese volunteered to fight the war for the U.S. Racist? Yes. 60 years ago? Yes. Look where the Japanese are now. I’ve visited a couple of the camps and it was a sobering experience. However, I’ve also visited German and Polish concentration camps and let’s just say it’s like comparing a black eye to a bullet hole. As far and Germans and Italians, seperating them from the rest of the general population (unless they distinguished themselves by being “hard core”) was extremely problematic. For starters, they were already well integrated into American society so singling them out was much more difficult for obvious and not so obvious reasons. But it is interesting to note how many German families changes their names during and following the war in order to make them sound “more American”.
As far as the Fallujah comparisions. Post war Germany looked much more bleak than Iraq (despite how bad of shape Iraq was in). Nothing takes the fight out of a country/people quite like losing millions of your men and women, all your major cities and industrial capablity, and unconditional surrender to multiple adversaries. However, if the Germans had “only” lost 10,000 people prior to surrender, there indeed would have been a whole lot more resistance during the “occupation”.
I guess I just don’t buy the “racism is the root of all evil” (American or otherwise) argument as much as you do.
Phillip – comment 25.
You have it exactly correct.
It is sad when young solders are sent off to war, being told their mission is to liberate, by their commander-in-chief, while all actions are obviously geared to establishing permanent bases in Iraq.
I fear the reaction on July 1st when Iraqis wake up to the “details” of “sovereignty”.
You are correct – soldiers should never be put in these situations.
I didn’t get what u mean, did ya mean that people in iraq should not attack you and the American soldiers just because ur ordered and work for the US Army? Thats nonsense! You guys occupied that country! Now deal with the consequences! Any one who sees his country being attacked by foreign people, he will try to kill them no matter what! He is defending his country! NOT his government regime, but his country! Wake up! u felt the glory by the US victory? now feel “Being defeated”! People their aren’t fighting for sadams regime to come back, but on the contrary, they are fighting against it and against the Americans! Not the british! The AmericanS! They started the war, they could remove saddam without destroying the country. Without killing all those innocent people. Without throwing chemical warheads that the UN declared most of Iraq’s soil as a not valid area for agriculture, ONLY BECAUSE OF AMERICANS, UR ASKING NOT TO HATE EM? I DON”T HATE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, BUT I HATE THE GOVERNMENT THE RULES THE USA! NOT ONLY THE USA! I HATE EVERY GOVERNMENT IN THIS WORLD!
Let me reiterate it again - war is a racket.
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
Always as been, and always will be. The rich make the money, the poor bear the brunt of the human loss. Of course, all is done in the name of whatever popular platitude of the day.
Anyone ever thought about the fact that maybe they don’t want our “Democracy” or our “Values”. Just maybe they have their own “Values” that they espouse. Maybe they actually have their own Civilization. Who are we to impose our “Values”, our “Freedom”, our “Democracy” , our “Civilization” upon a people. Our arrogance of “knowing better” today is no different then it was when the Europeans colonizied the Americas, Africa, Australia, the Middle East, or Far East or any other part of our Earth and “educated” the locals. The only ones who truly benefited in the end were those that held the pursestrings all in the name of greed and power. “Europeans” used here is simply a convenient label for any empire that have historically followed this pattern of “educating” the “savages”.
“America” is no different then any other empire that has come and gone in the pages of human history. In time, they will fade as all the other empires have under the weight of their own internal corruption. Unfortunately, the downfall is never a pretty thing as the “Barbarians” clamour at the gates. In the end the little people suffer and the powermongers reap the benefits. Thus, History repeats itself as Humanity forgets what as come before, convincing itself that THIS time things are totally different.
Here’s another perspective on the reasons for conflict, and why we are where we are today.
http://www.alamut.com/subj/economics/misc/clash.html
Fiona:
thank you very much for your words,
i couldn’t read all the comments,i can’t sleep,cant eat ,cant do anything,my sister is stuck in Ramadi,as she gives lectures in the university there,i worry about her & her daughter everytime the fight starts again,last time i managed to speak to them,i asked her 8yr old daughter is she ’s scared,she couldn’t say anything but started crying,
i’m amazed that you could understand that it has nothing to do with saddam(no one wanted him)
i envy all of you here,u type ur comments,then carry on with your life,you dont have to worry,
are you still there? you haven’t posted in a while..
Muthana, thank you for all the additional insights you’ve given us through the blog. I now have a better understanding of how difficult the situation really is in Iraq, and my thoughts are with you and your family. Stay safe, and keep us updated - we need your eyes and ears now that Fiona’s out of the country.
)
Take care.
Muthana
You are absolutely right that it is easy to make a comment about a situation of danger from surroundings of safety.
As Flip has said, I am not in Iraq, and as yet don’t know when I will be returning there.
Hopefully soon. If I can make the smallest difference to the situation there - to improve people’s lives - I will do. I know that working on TV studios doesn’t seem to be the most constructively beneficial thing to do…. but there are people in Iraq who haven’t had the chance to get their thoughts and feelings into the media. TV stuidos may help.
Dear Fonta
you have many intresting and useful data about Irag as an iranian observer and pilotical scientist i m intrested in ur blog accidentally i reached to ur blog and i take it as a good opportunity to say good luck to u contact me with the mail i m sure we can be good friends
An American soldier who returned from Iraq sent Micheal Moore(Bowling for Columbine) this letter,
I cut and pasted it here…
“I have just returned home from “Operation Iraqi Freedom”. I spent 5 months in Baghdad, and a total of 3 years in the U.S. Army. I was recently discharged with Honorable valor and returned to the States only to be horrified by what I’ve seen my country turn into. I’m now 22 years old and have discovered America is such a complicated place to live, and moreover, Americans are almost oblivious to what’s been happening to their country. America has become “1984.” Homeland security is teaching us to spy on one another and forcing us to become anti-social. Americans are willingly sacrificing our freedoms in the name of security, the same Freedoms I was willing to put my life on the line for. The constitution is in jeopardy. As Gen. Tommy Franks said, (broken down of course) One more terrorist attack and the constitution will hold no meaning.”
Heres the rest:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2003-12-19
I preface by saying that i know very little about iraqis, i know not their history or their people. Having said that though i cannot help but emphasize with the iraqi population as a whole.
I come from the UK, specifically Northern Ireland where as you may or may not know, has had plenty of troubles in the past three decades. I am not saying that Iraq and Belfast are one and the same but i know that in N.Ireland there was never a unified and violent standing against british forces. Yes, we did disagree with occupying forces actions in the past (bloody sunday inquiry) but needless to say in some respects it was accepted that some sort of action should be taken against IRA bombers. An armed batallion out and killing people indiscriminatly on the street, however is not peace keeping.
What i should say is that what is happening in Iraq is the same as what has happened here. Extremists have floated to the surface now that some moustached man was caught hiding in a hole and there is really nothing else the peace wanting iraqis should want more than is to enjoy the era free of repression they should so rightly have. That is not the case. The US government if it had wanted to leave would have done immediately after the deposition of Saddam, which is what should have happened. Instead the US is and will make its stamp on Iraq be felt for generations to come (a la Vietnam) on BOTH sides and Iraqis will resent this. After all, it is *their* houses, *their* possessions, *their* children and most importantly *their* country. I dont specifically remember if anyone asked *them* if they wanted nearly 200,000 personnel to come into their country and cause wide spread chaos in such a short time. In fact I don’t remember exactly what america’s reason was for entering Iraq. “Deposition of dictator?” There are many more dictators in the world doing many more horrible things, why not go for them instead? “Weapons of Mass Destruction?” Turns out to have just been a truck full of industrial fertilizer. Ah “War On Terror!” Oh wait… Neither Iraq nor Saddam Hussein had any involvement with Al-Quaeda. If america wanted to set an example of how to systematically destroy a country from the ground up, they needn’t have bothered. They’ve done that on far too many occasions in the past.
I give up now because i think i’m beginning to talk nonsense.
enjoyed reading the posts of your time in iraq and the descriptions of what you saw and experienced.
about the comments: it’s always fascinating to read what some believe is truth, even when they’re bombarded with information that makes their “truth” no longer convincing.
i’m sure that the iraqi people will get through this tragic time as they have had to do so many times in their history and perhaps one day may even be able to consider americans as friends. but i doubt it will be during my lifetime. best of luck.
Thats a bold statement cj, would you care to elaborate?
It’s simply hilarious to read past comments based on old news and information.
I think the line “you shouldn’t bomb someone if you don’t understand them” is a good one- but needs to be followed through to its ultimate consequences.
Fallujah includes people who stick IED’s all over the place and bomb people. These people think they understand the West. Its weak, liberal and runs at the sight of blood. It also has people who shoot at you when you raid houses to search for explosives and bomb-builders. It has people who used to work in governments which had arms surgically removed for dissent and gassed small towns in rebellion. These people are not the majority but are certainly there.
No sane civilized person understands this logic totally. So how do you respond?
Say a group of fighters picks you up. They decide to behead you on the internet. Many people could not understand that behaviour. Does this mean that no response is possible?
I hope the US works as humanely as possible. However the insurgents are not the IRA. They don’t call warnings in before setting bombs off in civilian targets. They will use suicide bombing to attack checkpoints, which means soldiers have to shoot cars that won’t stop. They will kill the local Iraqi police from enforcing law and order. They do use RPG’s which penetrate anything short of a tank. Figure out a bloodless way to fight these tactics and you deserve a Noble prize.
Unfortunately most journalists aren’t great at solutions (beyond the racist argument that Israel is the source of all the middle-east’s problems) but feel a strong need to look smart by tossing out opinions one way or another.
Good luck in Iraq! If you want to practice what you preach why not stop travelling with an armed bodyguard. After all, he doesn’t have the right
to use force to protect you from muggers whom you simply don’t understand.
Tony, your claim about the origin of Iraq must be corrected.
They did not speak old Arabic 4000 years ago. Arabic was introduced into the region during the original Muslim expansions in the 9th century.
Also, you grossly understate the British role in the creation of Iraq. The term applied to a region - this would be analogous to, say, China coming into England, carving it up and creating a Republic of the Midlands, and claiming a 2200 year old tradition for its existance, simply because the term was already in use to describe a region.
Researcher
Provocation promotes reaction.
My point to the Tank commander was that there seems to be a complete lack of communication going on, and without communication, misplaced ideas and violence will be met with misplaced ideas and violence……
About those who opose you.
I know what, let’s get the Iraqi bloke who doesn’t have a phone and doesn’t speak English to talk to the troops in a language he doesn’t understand to arrange a password, so that people can get out of the way of his RPG. That doesn’t work.
Or lets get a bunch of American GIs to talk to the locals in a language THEY don’t understand, within a culture they don’t understand to find out what they really want……..?
Hearts and Minds is (I worry) an over - the - top idealistic aim. Those who try for that are, surely, better than those who impose?
As far as body guards go, we were only ‘looked after’ on the road between Amman and Baghdad. I for one wasn’t really scared by the baseball bat our driver carried. After that, I spent my time in the Palestine / Sheraton compound. No specific security whatsoever.
For the record. The beheading of Nick Berg was an absolutely horrific act.
For the record, I think that the bombing of an Iraqi wedding party was an absolutely horrific act.
For the record, the torture and humiliation in Abu Ghraib is appalling.
For the record, what Uday Hussein did in Abu Ghraib prior to the ‘liberation’ of Iraq was in many ways worse.
There just seems to be an obvious conclusion that things should have improved more significantly for the Iraqi people than they have.
They were freed from a demonic tyrant. They have been delivered a sinister form of occupation. Neither of these situations were or are right for these people.
It may have paid to put your last comments as a new post - this Comments section is getting rather long.
(Great blog, thoroughly enjoyed it - though “enjoy” doesn’t seem quite right when reading about this American atrocity).
I’m a kiwi too.
Nice Peace-keeping
I took some rather hot flak when I opposed international gun control as an excuse for invading Iraq (if Iraq’s nukes are “bad”, are France’s and China’s nukes “good”?). I have also taken some sharp criticism for saying that invading a country in order …
A guy named Andrew Sullivan writes:
“If someone had said in February 2003, that by June 2004, Saddam Hussein would have been removed from power and captured; that a diverse new government, including Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, would be installed; that elections would be scheduled for January 2005; and that the liberation of a devastated country of 25 million in which everyone owns an AK-47 had been accomplished with an army of around 140,000 with a total casualty rate (including accidents and friendly fire) of around 800; that no oil fields had been set aflame; no WMDs had been used; no mass refugee crises had emerged; and no civil war had broken out… well, I think you would come to the conclusion that the war had been an extraordinary success. And you’d be right. Yes, there are enormous challenges; and yes, so much more could have been achieved without incompetence, infighting and occasional inhumanity. But it’s worth acknowledging that, with a little perspective, our current gloom is over-blown. Stocks in Iraq have been way over-sold. I even regret some minor sells myself. Now watch the media do all it can to accentuate the negative.”
While I’m not a huge fan of Sullivan, I think he does make a good point.
LOL. Where on Earth do you start with Andrew Sullivan?
a diverse new government, including Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, would be installed
Or rather, that an unpopular, largely ceremonial body will be in place headed, in an interim capacity, by Adnan Pachachi, but only after the US attempted to install the unpopular (amongst the majority pf Iraqis), Ghazi al-Yawer. It’s hardly a Government. Incidentally, the CPA is still in power until June 30.
that elections would be scheduled for January 2005
Hmmm. No mention of the local elections that were supposed to have taken place last June, where the coalition reneged on their promises and instead installed their own hand-picked administrators in a number of provincial towns.
total casualty rate (including accidents and friendly fire) of around 800
Nice of Andrew to ignore the hundred or so deaths suffered by other coalition nation troops. We’re all in this together, right? And no mention of the 10,000+ civilians killed. Nice one.
that no oil fields had been set aflame
True, because the oil pipelines have been easier to target, as they have been on a regular basis.
no WMDs had been used
Or found. The irony here is rich indeed.
no mass refugee crises had emerged
True, but the Bush Administration’s original calculations on the expected number of refugees was based on their theory that once war started, Saddam would let fly with his chemical and biological weapons. See above.
and no civil war had broken out
Yet.
At least we should be grateful for that.
Henry,
I do agree that not mentioning the casualties of coalition soldiers was insensitive at best. And of course not finding WMD’s was suprising to everyone involved and subsequently, quite embarassing for the U.S.
I guess I could address you comments to Andrew’s paragraph but I don’t have a desire to defend Andrew. Besides, even if I did, I doubt that would bring our thinking any closer together. That’s the thing about critisism, if it’s not from someone you know and trust, it rarely incites a positive response. But again, that’s just my opinion. My only intent was to remind folks that some progress has been made. If I have learned anything in my life so far, the only good critics are those who critisize other critics. As T.R. so eloquently put it:
“It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”
The cool thing about Fi and the soldier that she is responding to is that they both are trying to approach this situations with the own good intentions…divergent though they may be in their method. But in the absence of the “one perfect solution”, the most courageous of us must stumble forward as best we can toward what we feel is right and honorable.
i love how this blog lives on through its comments page…
The soldier should be writing.
He is an intelligent, realistic human being…, but I only know this through further email contact. anyone planning to visit Iraq in the near future, please pack a bottle of Merlot!
I just love that so many people who comment here sound as if they “know” what’s goign on in Iraq.
Hello? Unless you’ve experienced it for yourself, you shouldn’t be allowed to talk about it. This, like every other blog that mentions Iraq, has simply turned into a Liberals vs. Conservatives Amreican arguefest. Our national pastime is arguing about who’s right or wrong while people in Iraq - men, women, children, soldiers, religious leaders, octegenarians - die.
I am ashamed of us all.
I’m an Iraqi. I’ve lived half of my life in Iraq and half of my life in the west. I’ve seen Iraq in the 80s and I’ve seen Iraq during the 90s under the sanctions. I could not recognise my own country. People have changed. Iraqis were not like this 10 years ago. Everything changed for the worse multiplied by 10. I lived a very good life there in the 80s provided that you’re not into politics. We had free health care, free education up to university, women had their rights and were respected, Baghdad was clean and orderly, very similar to western cities. In other words, people were not jobless, uneducated and hungry like now. It is all gone now because of America. I will never forget what the U.S. government has done to my country. I appreciate the fact that they’re trying to fix their mistake (sanctions). The mistake being that you cannot punish people for what their leader has done. Just like Osama ben Laden is punishing U.S. citizens for their government’s support of aparthied Israel and Iraq’s sanctions. You guys must stop thinking that we Iraqis are so different from you. Believe me I know that Iraqis right now are full of anger and you would be too if you have seen what we have been through. I think that they have been abused enough by the U.S. Sanctions, war, building saddam’s weapons, supporting Israel, supporting Saudi royal family, supporting egypt’s dictator with money…etc., One thing I want us human beings to understand is that we are all shaped by our environments and experiences. An abused child will grow up to be abusive. We must show solidarity and love to one another by communicating and reaching out and aknowledge the fact that we are all being lied to by our governments. Please don’t expect Iraqis to throw roses at your troops. They are being bombarded by propaganda from all sides telling them that the Americans are there to humilate them. and I always think, if such a learned and cultured people like the Germans could fall for Hitler’s ridiculous propaganda, then so can americans for Bush’s and so can Iraqis for Sadr’s. The U.S. can EASILY win over Iraqis by just showing a little respect and common courtesy. For example, if they build a new road or repair the electricity problem, or even build a new school or hospital, people will, as an Iraqi I am telling you this, they will open up and really feel that the Americans are not there for trouble. Only then can the troops really get a taste of Iraqi hospitality and kind hearted generousity that they think they deserve
We could spend all day arguing about the errors the US leadership has made - the list is so long, I would hardly know where to start.
Instead, I’ll ask a simple question - what gave them the right to invade a far away nation and dictate it’s future?
As for insurgency - I have no time for brutal thugs and the decapitators of prisoners, but why were the Americans so surprised when such thugs emerged from a brutalised society - now oppressed by foreign armies. Would you not fight invaders of your nation - especially such arrogant and insensitive ones as these?
America thinks it is guided by God - that *IT* has all the answers and that per se means that it alienates the rest of the world, including especially those upon who it bestows the benefits of it’s military operations….. The slogan on that tank barrel says it all I’m afraid….
‘Father forgive them for they know not what they do.’
In response to comment number 2. I would like someone, anyone, to show me confirmed statistics by a reputable agency other than CNN that the Coalition troops have “killed” civilians in Iraq. I want to see these numbers with evidence that these Iraqis were diliberately targeted and that they were difinitively not being agressive towards said troops. It seems to me that more Iraqis have been murdered by terrorist bombings, shootings, and such than have been “killed” by Coalition troops. Let’s get this straight. The Coalition troops are not targeting civilians. If a civilian happens to be in the middle of a firefight that is very unfortunate; and does not constitute a diliberate killing by a soldier. I think humanity has forgotten that war is not some little rugby skirmish but played out with very deadly weapons. People, both Iraqis and Coalition troops, die for the cause of freedom in Iraq. This is an unavoidable and undeniable fact. I would like to hear the opinion of an “Iraqi” as to what they think of the Coalition and his or her new found freedom.
“No, we wouldn’t like it at all. But if our leader, or yours…were ruthless animals who oppressed, raped and robbed us, we might be relieved. If they killed our men and threw them into anonymous mass graves, we might even be grateful. Of course, with him still in power, we would never be able to say any of this because they might cut off our toungue, or even our head! And even if someone came into our country and got rid of him, we might still be afraid to say something. But at least we would be glad he was gone, and wouldn’t try to kill the people who got rid of him for us. Sorry Fi. Your writing is eloquent, but you way miss the point. It’s certainly obvious where your sympathies lie.
Comment by Maria — 11th April 2004 @ 10:20 am”
What about Vietnam? The US has butchered so many people in history, and propaganda is rife in the US media, or do you believe everything you’re told maria, like a good american.
Land of the brave and all that, just a shame your govt refuses to dissarm it’s nukes whilst telling the world to do so, ignores UN directives, oh and doesn’t bother to attempt to reduce greenhouse emissions.
If anyone needs toppling, it’s the US administration
I think Fi is correct on this one (apart from the genocide reference). Iraq is made up of tribal groups otherwise known as bedouin. Rather than ’savages’ these people will greet you and feed you even if you are their greatest enemy. These people are some of the most civilised and respected people on this planet.
What happened to those 4 americans was through mob rage. Keep in mind that in the late 80s two British Soldiers were lynched and stripped naked by a Catholic mob. Were they savages? Were the Irish Americans who fund the IRA savages for supporting this act? I leave history to judge that.
I think you all are lost on the basic needs of people. If we have a problem in the US and we need to change a political party or agenda. We vote them or it out. It is sad that a Nation as diverse as Iraq didn’t have the internal courage to stand up against Sadam. It is sad that another country had to come in to Iraq and help those proud people. I here a lot of people on the board talking about the US need’s to respect Iraq’s people. Maybe they needed to respect themselves and handle there own problems instead of running to UK, US, UE and calling for the removal of Saddam. I have spent time in the Middle East, and I have never seen a more pathetic sight. We here in the US are called evil and an occupational force. What do you call it when in a country, members of your own family turn you in to Saddam’s secret police just to gain favor. It is time for Iraq’s people to get off the pot and step up to the plate. When there own police force will not enter a city to control a riot it show’s the lack of courage on their part. Imagine if a US police officer said that to his chief of police. What would we think of him or her, and that is the second problem with Iraq’s people. Get out of the Stone Age, Islam left them behind as it progressed into the twenty first century. Don’t expect the US to respect you if you don’t respect yourself.
John, what exactly would you call the Shia uprising in the 90s? What about the Kurds in the north when they got gassed to death? remember those???
How can you say that about a people who have suffered for so long and blame them for it?
FYI nobody ran to the US/UK for help. It’s sad to see that you’re so naive to believe whatever propaganda your beloved brother Bush feeds you!
FYI#2, islam wasn’t very popular during the years before the American wars. Thanks to America, Iraq is now a hundred times into religion and terrorism than ever!
FYI#3 Iraq was only in the Stone Age after “you bombed them back to the Stone Age” in Bush’s own words. Iraq had the best medical care, education and womens’ rights in the entire middle east and who do you think reversed all that?….those ungratefull iraqis, how could they hate freedom so much eh?
Do us all a favour and stop going into countries and trying to straighten things out. To murder a democratically elected president and help a dictator to power and then “save” the people just shows what the US administration is all about–hypocracy and deceit. And those who believe whatever that administration spews out are miserably ignorant.
Don’t expect the rest of the world to respect you if you don’t respect yourselves.
Canadiana
FYI Thousands of Iraqis fled their country in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s and ask the US and UK for some type of sanctions against the Saddam to stop the killings.
FYI # 2 Islam has been fastest growing religion in the world for some time now. It didn’t take a war to cause that.
FYI# 3 When Saddam purged his own party in the early 70’s, and the majority stood by and did nothing. I think that qualifies as kind of a Stone Age mentality.
So I don’t understand what you are talking about Canadiana Bacon. It would seem your point is as dull as your sense of right and wrong.
Understand this when we idle sit by for so long and do nothing, people suffer. If it was left up to people like you Hitler would be running Europe now. I have no dislike of the Iraqi people. I have a dislike of cowards such as your self. We need to stop any type of abuse that had been going on in Iraq around the world. When the weak can’t protect them selves. It’s up to the rest of us.
P.S.
And for your INFO Saddam and his party were the ones that overthrew the rightfully elected government in Iraq.
So know your place and SHUT UP!
I LOVE AMERICA BY BRIT JOURNALIST TONY PARSONS
Do More Than Remember
by British journalist Tony Parsons
As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot’s mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.
An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.
Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.
But to the world’s eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America’s comeuppance.
Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.
There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic.
And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.
America is this country’s greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood.
A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon?
And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?
What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognised them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody’s son and somebody’s daughter, husbands and wives. And children. Some unborn.
And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?
These days you don’t have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.
The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world’s only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.
The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.
Remember, remember.
Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, “I love you,” before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.
Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum. Remember, remember - and realise that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.
So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex.
So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.
AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn’t is a sign of strength.
American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that’s what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute’s silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?
When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn’t push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a “war on terrorism”. A real war.
The fundamentalist dudes are talking about “opening the gates of hell”, if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn’t believe.
The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth.
The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.
But don’t blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you haven’t had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.
I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush’s poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic.
Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system.
America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.
Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers.
Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper.
And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein.
Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange centre, oh mighty one!
Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.
No, do more than remember. Never forget.
I love the people who say “you’re out of line” for typing something on your own blog.
Amazing.
Fiona, your points are justified. I don’t pretend to understand how the American justification for invading Iraq has metamorphosed since 9/11. Was it to make the world safer? Iraqis safer? America safer?
I agree that elections are a wonderful thing. I also believe that removing Saddam Hussein was a good thing. I do *not* believe America undertook right action. We acted pre-emptively, without any real justification. We were not invaded by Iraq. We did not invade as part of a legitimate multi-national coalition (unless you believe Bush administration rhetoric).
Your points to me are the ones that no one else makes: respect for human dignity, and also the collective dignity of a community, a society, and a government.
America is not Iraq’s “parent.” You do not invade another country “for its own good.” If you do, you should not expect goodwill or thanks from the conquered. The only way this works is if you are Douglas MacArthur in Japan. Iraq is not Japan.
I do hope that it might develop certain similarities over time, though.
I am constantly amazed at all the pro’s Ive noticed on the iternet since Ive gotten back. I chose to communicate the old fashioned way being that all the computers had been stolen on countless midnight raids that all of you were fed were “insurgent” arrests but were nothing more than looting sessions.
I noticed this post started in April 2004. An especially bad month in Iraq. I was running supplies for the 1st and the 86th, as well as various Devil Dogs. I saw first hand what happened. Let me lay it on you. It was an especially hot day and we had some real grade AA redneck knuckleheads in the recent new fish. We were supposed to be patrolling the streets and guarding the bridge. Someone got bored and wanted to take a little tour. As we drove by someone yelled “stop!’. I knew from the southern accent who it was that yelled. Nothing good was going to come of it. we backed up to find about 100 school kids aged anywhere from 7 to 13 years old. So in US terms, Jr High. They had a few adults with them that I assumed were teachers, all women. There were also about a half dozen men dispersed here and there watching. It was obviously a protest but was being held right in front of their school. All of a sudden I hear two rapid fires and see bodies hitting the ground, people fleeing, people crawling. My eyes could not leave one girl, about 12 years old who’s leg had been completely blown off and was crying and crawling on the ground. My sargeant jumps out of the APV and starts yelling at the two cajun newbies. He then proceeds to tell them to fire rounds into the 2nd floor wall. End result? 4 teachers dead, 14 children dead, 21 wounded.
A week later, an eager AF warthog crew took out about 30, including a groom who had just been married and was celebrating with the men in the street while the woman were still dancing in the small hall. Another site and sound I’ll never forget is the howl of the wife holding what was left of her husband after a 50 Cal tore him apart.
This was fallujah after we’d found Saddam months earlier.
If you think thats bad, that is nothing compared to the asshole mercenaries that not only ridiculed us for various things like 30 year old flaks, and M-16’s, but they’d throw 20’s at us and laugh because they were making so much money. More than a few times I was reminded that “we make in a day what you make in two months”. They shot civilains at will calling it road kill.They ran over countless cars in some kind of Monster Truck joke that sooon caught on to my whole battalion. 100’s of Iraqi’s cars ended up smashed just for laughs. At this point the US has been in Iraq over a year.
Soon, one of more infamous of asshole crews who worked for Blackwater and Custer would meet their fate in Fallujah which they called The Arcade. After months of rampant murders, drive bys, and Monster truckin, these four met their fate. You have to understand that almost a year of these abuses had been going plus reports of their women and daughers being raped in Abu Ghraib had been common knowledge for months. Then came the photos. That was the last straw. Things erupted. Of course, when they did the “contracors” or dickheads as well liked to call them were long gone, living it up in their Kuwait luxury hotel suites. We were left to do the dirty work. So what happpened? warthogs. 1000 and 2000 ton clusters dropped on regular neighborhoods for two whole weeks. When all was done, thousands were dead with thouands more in the hospital either burnt beyond recognition, or missing an arm, leg, or both. This caused more pissed off Iraqi’s. Local TV al Jazeera and Al Aribaya went to hospitals, went to city blocks in rubbles with Iraqi’s lifting whole walls praying for their families and friends lives to have been saved. Let’s also not forget that these bombs are nukes. Yeah, I know, you never heard that on the news. But its true. Plutonium, albutrum, and uranium, much more deadly than the Gulf war. YOu don’t want to see one of these go off believe me. Even in the range with .3 KT’s called Bunker busters, rings from the mushooms would stay in the sky for two hours.
After the bombing stopped, we were ordered in no uncertain terms to not talk about DU and/or plutonium under any circumstances. They were one of four questions you could not address.
So then we heard from the Shia. By then I was in Basra but still heard plenty. It wasn’t until September that I found muself back in Baghdad and Falujah. The new bombing campaign started in late september. It would seem to last all night.
Then of course came the Bush reelection. We all knew what was coming next. In fact the very next day we had daily meetings and excerises. It was apparent to me and a few of the guys that they basically wanted to drop a huge Atomic bomg in Fallujah. A couple of us broght this up at chow and the ignorance was staggering. I also found out that might that 97% of our USAF is Evangelical. Can you friggin believe that? the very guys dropping the bombs, think by doing so their bringing back jesus. That is no mere coincidence. i met one AF pilot who wasnt christian and I suspect he was not being too honest about it.
The bottom line was we destroyed Fallujah like it was a video game. Orders were given that is was a free fire zone and we would take no hostages. Most of the people we found were families still lying in their beds Krispy Creamed to the point of a cigarette ash. The ones that didn’t die in their beds and homes from the mighly bombs, were snipered and eaten by dogs. By the time we were allowed to bring Iraqi’s in to collect bodies, most were either run over by tanks or eaten by dogs. Hundreds, if not thousands or the women and children were dumped in the river. The final straw for me was seeing survivors. They were swimming through sewage and dead bodies across the Euphrates. As I went back to the truch with the $5 a day Iraqi’s were hired every morning to clean up our mess and load up the bodies, I had a smoke on the river. I must have spotted about 6 families making there way one family at a time across. They would hold up white sheets or towels above their head as they swam across, heling their kids at the same time. Piggy backing them much of the time. That is, until I heard the famous whirl of the Blackhawk. I tried to wave them off but they weren’t having it. They had come to play in the arcade. Three passes later and those families were all gone. Turned into chum filled with 50 Cal shells. Some wives watched from the other side frozen in despair. They were killed as well. That my expert bickering friends, was just part of the events of the city they used to call “the jewel of the River” or The City of Mosques. 82 mosques in all some dating back to Christ. All destroyed. And they plan to give fallujahs $500 compensation and 1.5 million for rebuilding.
I'’ tell you this. In the year plus I was in Iraq, the gas, propane, electricity, and water were worse before we invaded. The French and Russia got more workd done for them in two years(90-2000) than we’ve had done in 2 years with a 18 billion dollar reconstruction fund. so far we’ve supposedly spent a litte under 2 billion but I don’t see it. I saw one half of a school painted with marines bringing candy and book/pencil bags to two schools for photo ops that had been sent to Iraq by charities. Not one single crane to rebuild the hundereds of smased and bombed homes. it’s the same story in Afghanitan. All they;ve spent in Afghanistan is fixing the main oil truck road to the Caspian sea port and pipeline infrastructure. Not one poppy field has been bombed, not one home rebuit. You call that freedom? Democracy? Saving them from an evil dictator? at least Saddam let them work! Is it any wonder that 9 billion disappeared? Or that Halliburon cant account for $900 million thie year, and 1.2 billion last year?? You people really need to find some real news. Not all of you…
Air America Radio, Free Speech TV, Pacifica Radio, and Democracynow.org. They all have internet broadcasts. PBs is biting the dust quickly, so catch it’s last dying breaths of Democracy. Cheers, Lt. CC taking care of the 5th, the 1st, and the 86th. Glad to be out of there. You all HAVe to keep at it. It was a lovely signt to see this morning that not one single German citizen had something nice to say about bush. Even thgough they showed class and strength they have. We Americans cry if someone bumbs our car in a parking lot without a tirade.
“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?” –Mahatma Gandhi
Having spent some time abroad and learned what it means to be an American abroad, I can say that you are right on when it comes to the U.S. occupation and their inability to understand the people and the culture there. It is a sad thing, but the U.S. military still refuses to accept that understanding the culture of the people they are either helping or hurting can help the mission they want to accomplish. I remember asking a Marine in Okinawa why the military bases didn’t provide much in the way of cultural or language training. His reply? “They [the leaders] don’t want us to understand culture. If we can understand them, it makes it harder when we have to kill them.” Truer words were never said, although of course, I would be on the side of understanding.
I married a Marine and I can say that not all military are callous and unfeeling, but there is a mob mentality in the military itself that is hard to shake. That mentality is very much “us against them,” and it is so prevalent that sometimes it even leaks out into soldiers’ and Marines’ lives, such as the three wives in North Carolina who were murdered by their husbands, all from the same base, and within weeks of each other a few years ago.
I can imagine the way the U.S. military is underestimating the hearts of the Iraqi people, and I’m sorry that so many people have to die before this is over. As Nietzsche said, “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.” I pray that the Iraqi people will get their country back and our young men and women in the military will come home, soon, as soon as possible.
DEEP DISH TV RELEASES FALLUJAH
www.deepdishtv.org
Deep Dish TV has just released its latest project, Fallujah on DVD. This film has been nine months in the making and we are very proud of the results. Fallujah is the follow-up to the award-winning Shocking and Awful series, which played in theaters and television screens around the world. The DVDs are available through the Deep Dish TV website. We encourage people to set up screenings in their communities as a way of spreading awareness of the appalling events that took place in this small city. Deep Dish TV hopes that through a grassroots campaign, we can use this film to increase consciousness of what is really happening in Iraq.
About the Film
Fallujah is a unique collaborative production created by Iraqi and American filmmakers. After a major US led offensive launch in November of 2004, two-thirds of the city was destroyed and thousands of its citizens were forced into refugee camps.
Code Pink commissioned Iraqi filmmaker Homodi Hasim to send a team of videographers and investigative journalists to Fallujah to record the destruction and death inflicted by the American assault. He also interviewed many of the thousands of Fallujah residents who were forced to live in refugee camps on the outskirts of Fallujah and Baghdad.
Using the footage produced by Code Pink and additional footage of the US led destruction of Fallujah, Deep Dish Television has produced this gripping documentary.
Orders or Donations:
Deep Dish TV
deepdish@igc.org
212-473-8933
339 Lafayette St.
New York, NY 10012
Let’s be reasonable, here. I’m a civilian. If I run into a crowd at a theme park and start blowing people up, and someone shoots me in self-defense, that death is justified; however, it would still be considered a civilian death. Waving around the “1,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed!” statistic is extremely misleading, being that many Saddam loyalists aren’t soldiers or members of any organized militia. They wear civilian clothing, live in civilian houses, and roam the streets as civilians. Because of this, American soldiers have very strict guidlines for opening fire on a civilian, namely, they cannot open fire unless they can identify with certainty the threat involved. If they cannot identify the threat, it’s easier for them to retreat than to risk harming an innocent civilian.
To anyone who brandishes this statstic, please remember that though the Iraqis are people, so too or our soldiers. None of them want to live with the knowledge that their ignorance or impatience resulted in the loss of an innocent life. Many soldiers over there do get the chance to meet with and talk to the people they work so hard to protect. My brother was there over Christmas 2004; on Christmas morning, they awoke to a pile of hand-made gifts and cards from the local Iraqi children with whom they frequently played, and whose families invited them into their homes. Before he shipped out, he spent months pouring over books on Iraqi culture and history, he learned as much of their language as he could; he wanted to know the people he was risking his life to protect and defend and, ultimately, liberate. One of my good friends volunteered to go to Iraq at the beginning of the war, not out of a sense of partriotic duty or a need to “be manly,” but, he told me, “because I love them [Iraqis] and I want something better for them.” He died less than a month after he arrived.
Maybe it’s easier to oppose what you don’t like if you see our soldiers as machines who merely shoot now and ask questions later, because you think that by doing so you are asserting the humanity of the citizens of Iraq; but really, you are denying the humanity of those who risk their lives so that they can give these amazing people something they only dreamed of just a few short years ago: liberty. You speak only of those who are ignorant to Iraq’s history and culture. I hope to remind you of those who are ignorant to the amazing love, compassion, dignity, honor and understanding exhibited by thousands of American soldiers, airmen, sailors, marines and gaurdsmen every day in Iraq.
Maybe you would be happy to have Saddam as your leader again? Or even better Uday!! He promised to be more ruthless a leader than his dad. They were all animals! American’s are dying for you country, what other country could say that for us? I don’t think Iraq would die for us, if we had a ruthless dictator leading our country. You cry and complain about our occupation, yet noone even mentions the good that is being done there. You have lost lives and so have we, all for a country that doesn’t appreciate any of what we’ve done for them. I am very upset about any U.S. soldiers killing innocent civilians, although that unfortunately is a part of war, but to kill them in cold blood, that is unexceptable and they deserve everthing they get when our country deals with them. And we will. They deserve the death penatly in my book. But please, write about something good that has been done.For one thing, the capture of one of the most ruthless killers in the world, and the death of his 2 sons. For that, you should be glad at least.
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Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein.
[…] a gentle reminder of the game 11 10 2005 Wires - bloc: “Then of course came the Bush reelection. We all knew what was coming next. In fact the very next day we had daily meetings and exercises. It was apparent to me and a few of the guys that they basically wanted to drop a huge Atomic bomb in Fallujah. A couple of us brought this up at chow and the ignorance was staggering. I also found out that might that 97% of our USAF is Evangelical. The very guys dropping the bombs, think by doing so their bringing back Jesus.The bottom line was we destroyed Fallujah like it was a video game. Orders were given that is was a free fire zone and we would take no hostages. Most of the people we found were families still lying in their beds Krispy Creamed to the point of a cigarette ash.”Check the link to the full message from a U soldier in Iraq with his eyes open. Note the astute reference to a video game. That’s the point. […]
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